TThe Diary of a CEO
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11 August 2022

Building A Business Empire WITHOUT ANY Marketing: Five Guys CEO: John Eckbert

7Frameworks
12Insights

Frameworks in this episode

Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Explainer· 3

Explainer12:30

Customization Creates Value—and Thousands of Wrong Answers

Eckbert says Five Guys' 15 free toppings create roughly 250,000 possible burger combinations, supporting customers who want food made to their preferences. The same flexibility creates an operational burden: once one combination is ordered, every other combination is wrong for that customer. He frames accurate first-time execution as an essential part of customer service rather than treating variety as a benefit without cost.

  • Customization was positioned as an early strength of the brand
  • Orders are prepared after the customer specifies the desired combination
  • More possible choices increase the number of potential execution errors
  • Operational accuracy is the counterpart to customer choice
  • The transcript presents the combination count as Eckbert's estimate

you can have every burger 250 000 ways

John Eckbert · 12:30

there's 249 999 wrong ways to make your burger

John Eckbert · 13:00
#customization#operations#customer service#product
Explainer1:12:30

Technology Should Serve Customers Who Want Different Kinds of Contact

Bartlett suggests that restaurant technology could help customers request service when staff are busy, while acknowledging that some diners prefer human interaction and others do not. Eckbert agrees that technology should support customers' differing preferences rather than replacing one compulsory journey with another. He points to curbside collection, where the restaurant tracked an arriving car and timed preparation, as an example of technology coordinating a better handoff.

  • Some customers interpret less required conversation as better service
  • Others remain opposed to technology-led ordering
  • Eckbert argues for adapting the service path to the customer
  • Curbside tracking connected arrival timing with food preparation
  • Technology is presented as part of the solution rather than a total substitute for people

technology is part of the solution

John Eckbert · 1:12:30

we should be able to adapt for the customer

John Eckbert · 1:14:30
#technology#customer service#restaurants#personalization
Explainer1:15:00

Aligned Ownership Let Five Guys Make Long-Horizon Property Bets

Eckbert attributes part of Five Guys Europe's property strategy to its joint-venture structure and aligned shareholders. He says the partners could invest in prominent sites, including an unusually large Champs-Élysées location, without pressure from quarterly public-market reporting or a fixed exit horizon. He does not claim franchises or private equity cannot succeed; his narrower point is that urgency around an investment window can be misread as a reason to favour immediate earnings over a stronger medium-term decision.

  • Eckbert describes the shareholders as aligned around building a profitable business
  • The venture's structure supported expensive, visible property choices
  • Family and partner reviews focused on property, pricing and positioning
  • He distinguishes genuine business urgency from investment-window pressure
  • His argument is based on Five Guys' experience, not a universal rejection of other ownership models

my shareholders were completely aligned

John Eckbert · 1:15:30

focus on you know an indefinite time horizon and doing the right thing today

John Eckbert · 1:17:30
#ownership#long term#property#governance

Story· 5

Story01:30

An Unusual Childhood Shaped Eckbert's Search for Belonging

Eckbert describes growing up in a counter-cultural, isolationist household without television, birthday celebrations or holidays, alongside intensive violin practice. He says feeling like an outsider created a lasting desire for belonging that later influenced what he sought in professional life. He also credits Ayn Rand with introducing him to the idea that business could have a purpose beyond making money, while explicitly saying he does not endorse all of her views.

  • Eckbert says his upbringing felt markedly different from that of other children
  • Daily music practice taught him that repeated effort could build competence
  • He connects limited childhood community with an anxious search for belonging
  • His family expected him to pursue work with importance beyond personal wealth
  • He encountered the idea that entrepreneurship could be a socially useful profession

i grew up feeling different with this kind of longing to have a sense of belonging

John Eckbert · 02:00

being in business could actually be a noble profession

John Eckbert · 03:30
#childhood#belonging#purpose#business
Story05:00

How a Search for an Online-Resistant Business Led to Five Guys

After returning to the UK, Eckbert and Charles Dunstone looked for a business that could use Dunstone's retail experience without being as exposed to online competition as electronics. Neither had food-and-beverage expertise, so they sought a proven US concept that could supply it while their side brought property, hiring and UK market knowledge. Their search eventually led to a joint venture with the Morell family, whose US franchise territory was already largely allocated.

  • The initial search began with a structural concern about online competition
  • Food and beverage appeared more protected from ecommerce at that time
  • Eckbert and Dunstone recognised their lack of category expertise
  • They looked for complementary capability rather than pretending to possess it
  • The Morell family was seeking international expansion

we didn't know anything about food and beverage neither of us did

John Eckbert · 07:00

partner with someone who would bring that food and beverage experience

John Eckbert · 07:30
#partnership#market selection#five guys#expansion
Story55:00

Work Became Eckbert's Stable Place During Family Separation

Eckbert recounts a painful divorce and a court-approved move that took his two children back to the United States. He says a US non-compete and financial obligations made immediate relocation impractical, creating what he experienced as a catch-22. During that period, Five Guys gave him predictable work he could perform and a way to provide for his children; he presents this as his personal experience of temporary stability, not a general prescription to use work in place of support or recovery.

  • The separation process lasted for much of two years
  • Eckbert says the event disrupted several identities he held about himself
  • A non-compete limited his ability to relocate and continue equivalent work in the US
  • Productive work provided structure during severe uncertainty
  • He says his relationships with his children were later rebuilt in a different form

there were days when five guys was the one thing in my life that was stable

John Eckbert · 56:30

i could actually do something productive that i knew i was good at

John Eckbert · 59:00
#divorce#family#work#resilience
Story1:22:00

Eckbert's Search for the Motives Behind His Good Intentions

Eckbert says separation from his children forced him to reconsider the identity and intentions he had taken for granted. With feedback from his partner and therapy, he began examining whether apparently generous behaviour sometimes concealed anger or another motive, and whether suppressing negative emotion harmed people close to him. These are his personal reflections and psychological interpretations, not diagnoses or universally established mechanisms; his recommendation to invest in therapy is personal advice rather than medical guidance.

  • Eckbert says he discovered a gap between intended generosity and possible hidden motivation
  • He describes growing up believing he should not express anger
  • He believes suppressed anger sometimes emerged in harmful ways
  • His partner's feedback helped him notice impacts he did not intend
  • He says therapy has been valuable to him and recommends it from personal experience

there's a huge sea of unconscious motivations that i that i'm unaware of

John Eckbert · 1:22:30

therapy is great i highly recommend it

John Eckbert · 1:29:00
#self-awareness#anger#therapy#relationships
Story1:37:30

Eckbert Names the Apologies He Still Owes

In the closing question, Eckbert says he would apologise to his ex-wife and other former partners for being blind to what he brought into those relationships. He also mentions unresolved dynamics with his parents and apologises to his children, Hayden and Lucy, for times they needed both parents and he was not present. Although he describes legal constraints around the separation, he declines to use those constraints to erase the effect of his absence.

  • Eckbert says he denied or failed to see behaviours that upset former partners
  • He describes both receiving and perpetuating trauma in family dynamics
  • His apology to his children centres on moments of absence
  • He acknowledges the court context without presenting it as a complete excuse
  • The answer connects his late self-awareness with specific relationships

being so blind to the things that i brought to the relationship

John Eckbert · 1:38:00

there were moments where they woke up and needed both their parents

John Eckbert · 1:39:30
#apology#family#accountability#relationships

Takeaway· 4

Takeaway31:30

Hands-Off Leadership Still Requires Frontline Credibility

Eckbert describes his management style as hands-off with specialists while remaining deeply connected to the restaurant operation. He says he is qualified to perform every Five Guys kitchen task, even though experienced operators do them much faster, and argues that leaders should either be doing the frontline work or supporting someone who is. He contrasts this with interfering in specialist details such as IT, marketing or property after hiring capable professionals.

  • Eckbert rejects micromanagement as a default leadership style
  • He expects specialists to own their professional domain
  • Operational understanding gives leaders credibility in the core business
  • He calls the central office the back office rather than the head office
  • Support functions should remain connected to serving customers

we hire professionals who are really good at what they do and let them do their job

John Eckbert · 32:00

if you're not actually cooking burgers and fries you better be supporting someone who is

John Eckbert · 47:00
#management#operations#delegation#leadership
Takeaway51:30

Eckbert Sees Vulnerable Moments as Core Leadership Work

Eckbert says some of his most meaningful moments as chief executive occur when employees disclose bereavement, dementia in the family or another personal crisis. He believes supporting direct reports during those periods helps them regain the focus needed for professional work and encourages similar care throughout the organisation. His broader comments about workplaces building up or tearing down mental health are leadership beliefs and personal observations, not clinical findings established by the episode.

  • Personal crises reach the workplace even when they are not represented by a KPI
  • Eckbert describes flexibility and practical support as part of caring for direct reports
  • He expects supported leaders to extend care to their own teams
  • The approach connects with Five Guys' stated family value
  • The mental-health effects discussed are Eckbert's claims rather than medical evidence

it's the human beings and if you focus on them

John Eckbert · 53:00

you have the ability to either build up or tear down someone's mental health

John Eckbert · 54:00
#employee support#mental health#leadership#empathy
Takeaway1:20:00

Eckbert Values Connection Most When Life Goes Wrong

Asked what makes him happy outside work, Eckbert identifies connection during painful and vulnerable moments rather than only celebrating success. He says he wants his children to call him when a relationship, job or other important part of life goes wrong. He also believes his own losses increased his capacity to connect with colleagues in grief, presenting painful experience as meaningful in hindsight without claiming that suffering is inherently beneficial.

  • Eckbert places special value on being available during another person's distress
  • He distinguishes vulnerable connection from celebrating positive news
  • His personal losses changed how he responds to employees' bereavement
  • He links human connection with the belonging he lacked earlier in life
  • The meaning he found in adversity is his own interpretation

the connection stuff the painful gritty vulnerable connection stuff

John Eckbert · 1:20:00

the currency that is most precious to me

John Eckbert · 1:20:30
#connection#vulnerability#family#grief
Takeaway1:29:30

Providing Is Not the Same as Making a Partner Feel Loved

Bartlett reflects that he can justify relationship neglect by telling himself that hard work is providing for someone, while Eckbert questions whether what he offers a partner matches what she actually wants. Eckbert says authentic care requires paying attention to what makes the other person feel known, appreciated and valued rather than delivering an imagined version of love. Both men frame this as self-criticism and personal reflection, not a complete model for every relationship.

  • Bartlett questions whether work can become a self-serving justification for neglect
  • Eckbert distinguishes intention from the partner's experienced need
  • An imagined act of care can miss what the recipient actually values
  • Attention and curiosity are presented as more reliable than assumption
  • The discussion is autobiographical rather than professional relationship advice

it's probably not what i try to give my partner sometimes

John Eckbert · 1:31:00

what is it that makes you understand and feel loved and known

John Eckbert · 1:31:00
#relationships#love#attention#self-awareness